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Video-1: youtube.com/watch?v=bTbRXFYT2OE

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observation question. Um on the public lands voted that this is for the new referendum. >> That's correct. So um can you go back to where it shows the increase in the mill? There you go. So if you look at the public lands voted debt, the original

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authorization to um take out debt related to the acquisition of public lands was in 2007, I believe. Yeah, 2007. and that debt was retired this past April. The voters in

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2024 did have on the ballot a request or um potential approval of a new debt service instrument for up to $50 million using this millillage to pay back the debt service for the purpose of

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acquiring public lands for conservation and recreational uses. All right, so just to be clear that this isn't the same millig increase. This is a basically a new millage based on that >> referendum >> the new $50 million. So if you were to go and get a we we do have the plaque

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committee currently evaluating potential purchases. Um if you were to go out and and take out the $50 million bond next week we would have to have the money in place to be able to pay the debt service next year. >> Okay. >> Can I make one up?

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>> Absolutely. I'll just make one observation um just I guess for the record uh the wellness way MSTU so as predicted and discussed uh it's actually more than 50% reduction if I look at it it's like 54% maybe but yeah um so as

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planned and as discussed uh it had been that way all along for the record uh we cleared up a little ordinance language that the city of Claremont uh I think wanted one way but we changed it back to make sure that it was that was a couple years ago they didn't Okay they did not. Okay.

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>> But we did our own change. Remember with >> we made our own change >> theasi about lowering knowing anticipating that we were going to have >> correct value. >> What the board discussed last year um after concerns were raised by a resident in the area was that the county would

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contribute what it would normally pay for any county road maintenance. So whatever that dollar amount and any it is, the county would contribute from the general fund or the gas tax fund. Anything above and beyond that for enhanced services such as the landscaping and the medians, the pavers

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and the roads and the uh mass arms and the lighting, things that you don't typically see on county roads throughout the county would be paid for out of the MSTU. So last year the the rate was reduced 50% from the original proposed rate. this year because the values

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increased so substantially we were able to reduce it even further. >> Yeah. And I just wanted to point that out again that we you know all along it it's it's for a very specific purpose. There was no no um reserve or some kind of other account being built up. this is

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very specific to what it it's supposed to fund and it it's doing as designed and as it continues to grow in that area that will go e even further and further down and there could be a day where it's not needed >> but uh I just wanted to rehash the discussions because we're having it now

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and this is coming up on the agenda and I mean I'm I'm pleased with the way that that's gone. So thank you >> and and if I may that's not a countywide MSTU. >> It isn't but that's good point. Don't point that out. It's only in that area. That's right. And the the idea, which I appreciate you, maybe this is where

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you're going to go, but is to help so that the rest of the county doesn't pay for that. It's the it's where the growth is. Correct. >> And that's what we started to do with all of our any new subdivisions that came through the board of county commissioners. We were requesting the

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MSTUs be used so that future road um resurfacing and so forth is actually being funded by the people that live within those neighborhoods. >> Sight specific. >> Yeah, it's actually very conservative. Uh yeah, thank you. >> So I just want to make sure that um everybody understands our millage rate

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is not increasing from uh last year. This year there's been no millage rate increase. >> No sir. >> And there's no millage rate increase in the U Lake County Water Authority. >> No sir. >> Thank you. >> With the exception of the public lands,

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>> right? But that is >> well that was voted on by the voters. So I mean we have no control over that. So there what we have control over there is no millillage rate increase from last year to this year. >> No sir. >> Thank you. >> And then from this decision today this

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is the the max at the at the final hearings. You can reduce meages. You can't >> can't increase >> you cannot increase them. So all right. So we just need a motion. >> Move approval. >> Second.

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>> And we had a first. We had a second. All in favor and that's approval of the rates as well as those public hearing dates and advertisements. All in favor say hi. I >> I >> and I um that's 40 that is adopted. Okay.

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Thank you very much. Um moving on now to this is the discussion um regarding the proposed moratorum on data centers and a presentation and we're going to have Kathleen Dial take it from here. Good

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morning. Yeah, just for a moment. Um, for the record, Kathleen Dial, executive director of development services for Lake County. At the June 23rd board meeting, the board discussed a temporary pause on data centers within unincorporated areas of Lake County and

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asked staff to bring back information on data centers as well as an ordinance for consideration. So, in order to support the board's request for more information, we've engaged with partners around the region um to provide you with a presentation on data centers today. We

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recognize this is an important topic and a very complex issue for local governments to engage in and there are a lot of public concerns around data centers. We also know that data centers are evolving quickly as all technology is these days, sometimes faster than we

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can keep up with, certainly for me. Um, so we wanted to get you as much information as we could to help you um, inform your decision- making and guidance to staff. Um, so in the words of Sergeant Joe Friday from Draget, our goal for today is to present you with

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just the facts. I am not an expert on data centers. Um, so after the presentation, we have several partners here today who I'll introduce in a little bit. I'm calling them the fabulous five here on the front row. Um, but they'll be on hand to answer any technical questions that you might have.

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Um, in the 2026 legislative session, Senate Bill 484 was passed, which requires large load users to bear its own full cost of service, preventing costs from being shifted to residents and small businesses. This is

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accomplished through a large load customer tariff. The bill requires public utilities to file for public service commission approval for a tariff structure that complies with the law no later than October 1st of this year. Large load customers are defined as

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having a monthly peak load of 50 megawatts or more at a single location and large-scale data centers are defined um as that same definition of the 50 megawatts or more. Um, this legislation requires large-scale data centers to use

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reclaimed water when feasible and undergo a hearing for high volume applications and modifications. Water management districts must establish a CUP process separate for large-scale data centers and they have the authority to require reclaimed water. CUP

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amendments for large-scale data centers are to be treated as new applications through water management districts. The bill also provides for a separate permitting approach for large-scale data centers at the local government level. Um, and the local government has the ability to control that through their

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comprehensive plan and zoning regulations. There is also requirement within the bill for the state to conduct an impact study regarding construction and operations including sighting and impacts of data centers which is due July 1st of 2027.

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And with that, I will turn it over to someone who is more much more of an expert than I am. Um, Dr. Issa Batter Batars, professor with the Florida Power Electronics Center at the University of Central Florida. >> Kathleen, before can I ask you a quick question? >> Yes.

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>> Have we been approached by anybody that wants to put a AI data center in? >> Yes, we have. >> Okay. Oh, good morning uh Isa University Central Florida. Thank you so much for the opportunity and I want to thank you

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K for coordinating and special thanks to Paul Soul, CEO of Florida Hi-Tech who kind of uh walked me through this and coached me to make sure we provide the technical insight as much as I can. And this is really um my personal view as a

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faculty who's doing research in energy. So I'm going to address the data center from the power electronics power energy conversion which is really the architectural design of all data centers and if we um I think this is a very

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timely discussion and I really appreciate the commissioners thinking of broadening the conversation and getting more insight especially when it comes to the technical uh decision making where a lot of information are changing almost

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uh daily on this u uh this enterprise. So we know data centers are you know have been around for many years. they've been housing computing facilities for and storage for all kind of power and cooling uh infrastructure changes and we

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have seen that if you go from the bottom up the last 20 years has been it has been media storage streaming it has been bank services it has been all kind of services if you move up with that the

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last decade it was about cloud storage so cloud was a wave that came almost 10 years ago and we gave it a lot of infrastructure. Then the bigger wave just came. So the AI the data center is another need for facility that can do

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that. So this is a really infrastructure happening uh in a very large scale and the question is not AI is coming it's not coming near you is AI coming to you because that's how it going to happen and the question is are we really

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prepared for it and and I think that's uh you're raising all this the right time the for this conversation uh these facilities not only being secured by they work you know all the time they provide all the digital lifeline to the

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to the civilization actually not alone the you know the economic community um these are uh happening at a larger scale throughout the US unlike the previous wave the amount of power needed is huge and I'm sure we're going to hear

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that from the utility side and we seen um the bill that addresses that huge concern so what's the difference between cloud computing and AI computing it's a the difference is almost 100 times different in terms of the power

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consumption. So they all do computing but AI does training. So when you talk about training you are actually turning on the entire computing process to to answer maybe one question where cloud

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computing was a serial way of getting data slowly do computing and very high speed but now it's the the total disruption to information to train AI is huge. So if you look at the numbers it's no longer linear and the problem with

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society in general including myself even though I'm in academia we don't understand exponential curve easily. So when we talk about things double every few years it just hard for the mind to understand but if you are talking about this processing unit for lang large

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language model you're talking about power going to go to the power of doubling very quickly. So if you recall the for the last 50 years in the digital revolution we doubled power every 18 months. We call that Mo's law. So if you

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are talking about computing power that was almost 18 months we doubled. With the doubling of the power the price went out down almost in half the size became down reliability went up and that's the digital revolution driving throughout

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the last 20 years. But the AI computing power is not that exponentially going doubling in every 18 months. It's changing every day. Why? Because AI has the code inside to improve itself. And every every data center we built before

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the information inside did not improve itself. So as you are talking to AI today, it's actually improving itself by itself. That's why we call it agent no longer tool. So the these agents need a lot of power and when it comes to power really you're talking about how much

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power and Kathleen asked me can you address the types of data centers and I think you mentioned figure 50 megawatt if you look at this table the top the top three and the bottom one is actually data center that we're used to whether

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it is really for facility like UCF or Disney World it's actually been working fine and we've been providing power utility have provided It's number four in the list. The AI factory and AI disruption. That's the number one change

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is happening because the number of the amount of power this is the first time humanity will reach 1 gawatt for a facility. I'm not talking about when you talk about that large power and you know as you mentioned 50 megawatt is nothing compared to what they need. they need a

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little bit more u here and there but look at the number of uh power globally so we are dealing with a competition with the change that's not happening in the lake county or the state Florida or the US it's happening worldwide and

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we're looking amount of power needed is so huge so whether we like it or not we need to provide that power because if we don't provide it someone else will provide it and AI will continue to grow because it's not going to stop uh the growth. So what's happening inside the

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box? Sorry, I'm a power electronics person. I'll try very much go through the next slide very quickly without giving much detail. But if you think of data centers like Amazon in the past or your your banking system or UCF data

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center, that's the one on the left 10 kilowatt. We've been building those 10 kilowatt ranks all the time. So now we are needing a little bit different arch architecture. We changed the power. We needed more power. So now we're going to 500,000

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uh watt kilowatts. That's a half a mega rack. So the future in the next few years, it's 1 megawatt in one rack. And when you talk about a rack, it's like you're going to have thousands of those racks inside the factory. And you know when you talk about one megawatt, it's a

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community in a box. So what does it mean? It means if you want to power that 800 volt DC architecture and by the way I have to mention that it's we are changing the architecture uh the power architecture

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need for data centers as we speak startup companies are happening throughout the world not let alone the US very quickly how can you go from that rack to 1 megawatt the answer is cut the cost cut the power efficion

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we call efficiency So a lot of architecture is happening. I borrowed this from Delta Electronics. This is their next three-year projection. All data centers are going to address the utility power all the way to the chip. How do you power that train is changing

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as we speak. So now what why am I telling you this? I'm telling you this because the economic development of changing that infrastructure is huge. So if whether we like it or not, we have to change the architecture we have today. This is the architecture we have today.

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And I'm sure you've seen those big transformers sitting out there. The problem today is how long it take you to order that big transformer for a 10 megawatt data center or 50 megawatt. So we are dealing with a very low efficiency, very hard to get supply chain and this

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is the traditional very low voltage architecture. So what how voltage is 12 volts kind of system very inefficient. So years ago the last 5 to 10 years we went to a higher voltage 48 volt. I'm sure you heard of 48 volt DC bus. So every data

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center you might know probably 48 volt DC but that's the way universities and research centers in Florida are responding. We can't continue with that infrastructure because that's 1,000 kilowatt. We need a 1 mega kilowatt.

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This is the new architecture. This is happening in real time. I just came from Japan u for a meeting on on kind of the future of power electronics and what is how can we serve data centers. They put this slide similar to this slide and

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this means the box on the left hand side is SST. This is a smart semiconductor transformer or solid sim solid solid solid state transformer. Now what does it mean? You go from the traditional

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one, this one, sorry, you're going to go from this one into something full of electronics. This is an impact to our student to the R&D community and you know Nvidia drove the

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architecture and now everyone is following what Nvidia decided 1,00 watt DC watt is going to change the infrastructure. Are we going to see high efficient data centers? Yes, because this is not going to be accepted to go traditionally. Utility will provide the

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support from the left hand side. If you look at the the diagram and the question is how do you go down all the way to the to the chip level and the answer that's where innovation and creativity and we are going there slowly. Here are the eight questions we have to answer and I

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think you've been addressing that and the fact that you invite someone from academia to look at that you're really addressing those concerns very clearly. The question is not these qu you know these are not the challenges themselves they are the question we need to answer in the next you know few months maybe a

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year we have until we are ready to embrace this technology it's not whether we like it or not it's going to come the question are we ready for it so the grid capacity limit it came up a lot this is going to be the number one how if you generate the power is one issue second

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issue how do you deliver it so there will be a challenge to There is who going to bring it to the box inside the factory those utility people have to answer answer that every time somebody access AI a total disruption happened to the grid who's going to control the grid

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to make it safe operation voltage power frequency are stable so this is my research area so we are focused on side how do you make the power quality under a very large transient safe and I have to tell you as a researcher and also I

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have my own startup companies in the area. This is solvable and as we speak they're making this open source code. So whoever builds a data center going to have an a code that will stabilize the grid regardless how many people going to

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do that. So the top three is what we're working on. The bottom now you're talking about you know cooling and water resources. This is where you are addressing that issue. somebody has to address that as well and when it comes to land and when it comes to leg regulator regulatory issues and that's

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really what you are looking at. So to me uh the final remarks uh AI is really is a real boom in changing the humanity whether we are going to accept it or not. Uh this is not like the previous wave. This is a very very different

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wave. It's unprecedented infrastructural need in terms of investment. The data centers will always be around now whether we put them in lake county or outside because at the end of the day the amount of computing power require that kind of infrastructure. Uh it's

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going to expand the economies. There is no doubt a new wave of skills are needed. The universities in Florida need to address that. And I think uh we did that with a cloud computing. We did that with every technology wave. Well, with

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this wave, we need to provide the you know the skills needed for the new jobs. The as I mentioned the infrastructure investment of course university R&D is now going very strongly in that area and UCF like many Florida universities are

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pushing very hard and this really allows you for a great partnership. Um, of course, the ecosystem for a startup for a small businesses is going to continue to rise in a very big way. Every watt that comes to the to the box comes

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through what's called power electronics. So, powerronics is an enabling technology. It will empower the R&D centers in Florida to be able to do that. This means all of this whether you know we're scared or we're going to embrace it means we have to plan correctly. And I appreciate this

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opportunity to speak. I think the issues on the right is the the eight ones or almost eight points I raised. So the question is can we address them on time because if we we address them correctly every challenge comes with a great responsibility and these are wave

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together challenge and opportunity. So I I will be happy to answer all the questions regarding this subject. >> Let's maybe wait. Thank you Dr. Bitar say um just a couple more um things for your consideration today. Um as in many

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cases development applications, there are other regulatory agencies that would provide um oversight on a local and regional level. applications for data centers that meet certain criteria like a large load customer would also need to get approval from other agencies for

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things like water consumption, storm water management, power generation, electric grid impacts, wetland buffers. Of course, the board of county commissioners would regulate such things such as building height setback, landscape, site access, noise, vertical

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construction, zoning, and land use. those if if it's your um direction can be addressed through the LDR update for items such as water quality, air quality, e-waste, electronic waste, heat waste, um hazardous waste, all the waste

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and the effects on wildlife. Those would would be regulated at a state and federal level. And one just clarification on the question about if we've been approached by a large um data center and Mike can speak a little bit more on that. we have but we are we do not have any that we are actively

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working on as economic development projects at this time. Um so we have several partners here today to help support the board's discussion and answer any questions that you have. Mark Hoenstein is here um managing director of economic development with Duke Energy. Sitting

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next to him is Jack Hinkle, COO of the Florida High-Tech Corridor. Mike Kelly with Lake Economic Area Development. Um Paul Soul, CEO of the Florida Hi-Tech Corridor. Also on Zoom today from the um St. John's Water River Water Management

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District, we have Klay Corsy and we have a representative from SECO in the room as well today too. So with that, I will turn it back over to the chair for board discussion direction. These gentlemen and um Clay online are available for any questions that you have.

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>> Okay. All right. Who's got questions first? >> I I got a question I think is is really broad-based and it it it'll maybe get the discussion going a little further on the board. Um, but if you look at the the presentation that was just made by Dr. Bad Batteray, am I pronouncing that correct? If you say if you look at the

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first slide, I don't know if you can put it back up, the what is a data center um slide and then yeah, so that slide uh you I mean I think that's a key question to start with is the physical digital infrastructure behind all those uses.

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So I mean let that sink in of what all that is and how much it is in daily life but then juxtapose that against your last slide which had all the issues. So I don't know if you can go back to that um issues to address. So the question

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would be what are we what because I have a lot of I get a lot a lot of people just probably like all the commissioners what is what are the is it the water is it the energy now we have state senate bill 484 which has now some guidance and a little more protection and I'm kind of wondered why that isn't new more bigger

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news than it is because it's a good first step addressing some of the issues but what for the panel what's the like what is the what's the most critical is it is it by region or is out of these issues to address, what's the top issue? I mean, or is it the

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water, which it could be in Lake County? Is it is it the energy grid? Um, maybe it's better in certain parts of the state, but what is what's that top issue, I guess, is what I've >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Very quickly, and I'll turn it to

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you. I I think from my perspective looking at the problem itself a challenge the it's the amount of power needed to be available and h how to get that power delivered to the to the factory. So um um just very quickly to

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get the power from the grid all the way to the chip is kind of several stages. I put quick slides but I had to skip them. the T it's too much technical detail but if you go from 38 KVA which is the line you see the transmission line down to

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bring it to the factory there's a huge transformer has to step that down to bring it to the factory everything we've done the last 20 years is AC so we brought the AC to the factory and we brought it down to DC to 12 volts and everything worked fine because it's a

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low amount of power so what happened today when you deal with one megawatt per rack So you need 100 megawatt to the factory. How do you bring a 100 megawatt? The utility will not change because the utility has 38.8 KVA which is the one you see in the

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street. I'm not going to change that easily. So given that amount of power, how do you bring it down to the factory is now saying has to be very efficient. 70% is not good. How do you make it 90 95? The answer is that that box that

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brings it down is a big challenge. Now the next four four to 5 years everyone wants to address that phase. Once you are inside the factory that water comes why water needs to move the heat out of every rack I showed you and that's where

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you can use fresh water reclaimed water maybe sea water and you see the huge companies like Google and others are going to the to the ocean to cool it or next to the so forth. So to you that is the power infrastructure is the question

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you need to answer. If a if if a company comes in they need 100 megawatt can we provide 100 megawatt to that site next you know 5 miles from here. Second question is if it gets hot which it will get hot because 90% efficiency means 10%

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of the gawatt has to get out and that's when the water comes in and get it out. So the question is renewable going to serve. So we believe in renewable energy is going to really cut on water because when you talk about renewable energy in the front end it's all DC toDC I can cut

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a lot of uh power losses so the issue of water and the infrastructure is is really those are the other issues you have to raise and so >> is it going to DC >> the panel want to address other than the power >> you said going to DC at the it's a technology >> the DC architecture is the new

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technology >> okay >> and Nvidia drove that model. So the inside the box is going to be 1,00 volt DC. And if you raise the voltage to 1,000, the current goes down and the losses become less. And if you do 95%

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efficiency, that will be a huge saving. This is what the promise is. >> Yeah. So some of that's technology. I guess that's probably all our concerns. I know you're going to have good questions here, but is how it affects our residents in terms of um energy

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bills and then the water usage, which I know 484 is going to address a little bit of that, but making sure we're not drawing out of the groundwater for that. Um >> that's um before before you leave, I I have a

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couple of questions. Sorry about that. I didn't see coming up. Um just real simple I keep hearing large load data centers large load data centers large load data centers what's a large load what's the

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definition where is the benchmark when it's a when it becomes a large load >> yeah that's a great question because there's no such in my opinion personally I did not see any standards in what defines Iraq power as a standard. So the

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rack power that my students are used to when I'm student to walk to UCF to the data center is about 10 kilowatt that rack mean 10 kilowatt is a lot of power maybe it's like a home maybe smaller than a home in that box. So that's the

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load and you know 50,000 student at UCF each has a you know account and we do a lot of it. This has been good for them 10 kilowatt 20 kilowatt. Now the load went up to 50 kilowatt 100 kilowatt when

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I became data center cloud computing. So when the UCF wanted to build a server to do computing we have to give them a little bit power. So our power station at UCF has to deliver a little bit more to that. So the load went up. There is no standard. Depends on the customer who

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is going to use that number of servers in the room. So if you walk to the server we make it cool. We lift it from the ground. We do all the conditions to make sure the power get consumed at high efficiency and and you can cool it before you burn the you know ices

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because if you don't have the if you cannot get rid of the heat is a problem. So we paid a lot of money at UCF to clean to clean the power to make sure it's cool. Well now with the AI it's about one megawatt per rack. It's like my community is 26 homes probably the

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entire community in that box. So I'm going to give them 1 megawatt. How do you remove 10% heat from that? Well, that's a very heavy load. So today for me, a company comes to Lake County to build an AI data center probably 50

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megawatt. That's the entire factory. This means that factory to consume power 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, they need that much load. And if you look at the amount of heat has to be removed, you just take 15% of that. So that's the

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amount of load and that's amount of heat you have to get rid of it. So there is no standard to go back to your question of what is really a load and I saw you the table and I think the bill mentioned 50 megawatt. So we're going to be in that range we're going to be 50 megawatt

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100 megawatt 200 megawatt and the startup companies that I'm aware of they're doing five megawatt box. So they're going to bring like 50und boxes to their factory each one is 5 megawatt. So the load will continue to go up

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because the demand is going up and when the demand goes up more computing and more computing means more people are using AI unlike clouds. Cloud computing was different because you did it serially with enough time between but AI

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is instant. You ask Chad GBT a question you are actually firing an entire cabin of 1 megawatt to answer that question. I'm sorry I don't mean 1 megawatt now because it's much smaller now but uh but these data loads are changing as we speak. Sorry it took a while to answer

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that question but there is no simple answer. >> Okay. So so we don't know what a large load is. >> No madam chairman >> I mean there's not a there's to say that >> we know what the statute tells us right? >> Yeah. >> So if >> I have more more questions.

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>> Well I was just gonna >> go ahead. You go ahead and then I'll ask more questions later. No, no, I just I just wanted to answer your question. Mark Cohenstein with Duke Energy Florida. Um to answer your question, Commissioner, uh large load is really defined by the legislative body or the

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the local councils about what is a large load. Yeah, you see differences throughout the states. Um some people say 25 megawatts and above is large load. Uh in Florida, we've declared 50 megawatts and above is large load. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't protect under 50 as well. And we do that at Duke

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Energy. We're we're we have a process for under 50 as well, but um 50 and above it does go through the large load tariffs and uh in every investor own utility per Senate Bill 484 is required to file a large load tariff for the

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public service commission to consider. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. So the the the question um I have another question I have is um ced water consumption. So I know that we could use

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reclaim water to cool some of the equipment. Um but can't we use like a closed cell um system where it uses very minimal water once it's full? So the water

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debate would not really come into play or we can have them uh build a um reclaim a small reclaimed water facility at their site. >> Commissioner, we're not a water utility.

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Um but I can speak as a econ developer working for a power utility. Uh we do get a lot of requests from projects that are looking across our six states and we do hear a lot from the client that they can do closed loop water systems, water

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cooling. Um and there are at least two different types of that. There's some that have chillers on site and some that don't. Uh the ones that don't, they call them um zero water chill uh closed loop systems. And if you have a zero water

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closed loop system from what they tell us, uh they would not they would just charge that that uh system and then they would not have to take any more water from the local community as long as there are no leaks in the system. And that's that's what a lot of the industry

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from what we're hearing are moving toward the ones that reach out to us. >> Yeah, we can we can set our policies. We're yet to have one of those systems. And if I'm not if I'm not mistaken, I understand that that we are now taking

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looking at taking the AC into a transformer and turning it into DC. Is that right? So, so we're going back to Tesla's deal, right? >> Yes. >> Okay. Nicolai Tesla coming back to coming back to play. So, all right.

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Thank you very much. >> Would be happy. Yeah, he'd be happy. >> I'm I'm curious about examples that already exist around the state um that are hitting those higher megawatt

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numbers. Do we have any? I mean, we see things on social media and it's so hard to know whether it's real or not. I I've read things about communities that have these horror stories and I don't know whether they're really real communities or not. you know, it's just so hard to figure it out.

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>> Madam Chair, it's excellent question. Um, if you think about it, 50 megawatts, just put in perspective, uh, would be like a rebar plant, um, like a steel steel mill, small mini mill. Um, so if you think of like a new core or

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something like that, um, we Duke Energy Florida does not serve any large load data centers in Florida today. Uh we do serve a lot of data centers and those are one megawatt, 2 megawatts, 3 megawws. Um kind of think of like the

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size of maybe one or two super Walmarts super centers. So that's that's about what we're serving on on average right now throughout Florida. And Florida's actually in the top five in terms of number of data centers in the in a state. Um so there's a lot of data

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centers here. It's just that they're not large large enough to hit hit that radar of large load. >> But are they large enough to be having the impacts that people have complained about or that I've read about like the

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the noise um or I mean that seems to be one of the things that I've noticed a lot is the complaints about the humming and the just the the sound that's generated. I I can answer that question as someone who's trying to learn myself

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um because you know not not in the data center business but visiting um Northern Virginia and learning what they've gone through. So Lowden County um Virginia is data center alley that's the center of the data centers in the US. Um Ashurn Virginia is the is the city there and if

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you go there you do learn a lot about um you know what you're hearing on the media in the media and and what you're seeing in real life. And I would I strongly encourage everyone if they get a chance to to tour a data center um and just to see it. There there's a lot to be to be learned in that process. But

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there's a lot of mitigation from what they told us in Lowden County that can be done and um we did actually walk by a few data centers just to listen and uh we found that uh it was very quiet. Um you could hear you could hear the road noise over the generators in cases that

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where generators were running. But most of these data centers are connected to permanent power, so they shouldn't be running their generators um unless they're doing a test or something like that. >> Interesting. Um but the ones you described that are you said Florida's in

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the top five as far as number of centers, but the size is about maybe like the footprint of two Walmarts. I >> I would say one to five megawws on average around the state of Florida right now. And what do we know about the water and how they're doing? Are they

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doing these closed loop systems? Do we know anything? Does anybody know about that? >> I mean, I thought when all of this discussion started that one of the best things we could do would be some site visits, actually see something in action and visit those communities um and get

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real feedback from people that are there. I was just gonna draw attention to we have Clay Corsy with the um water management district on the line who may have more information about that. >> Okay. Can we ask Clay? >> One quick question why Mark was up real real quick. Sorry about EMF because I

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want to get that >> I get that question a lot with the you were mentioning the data center alley in Lowden County, Virginia. That was a what because we get questions about EMF electro the electromatic radiation that comes off or not radiation but the signals and is there any what what do we

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tell people that because you know that it it's a question. >> I'm not sure how to answer that that question. I I haven't heard that concern. Um I I've heard the concerns about water. I've heard about noise. um you know about power and and if you want I can talk about the power bill and whether or not that goes up and how that

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h happens but um but I haven't really I don't really hear much about the uh >> which is I mean it's a really good point because we hear it all the time like when the transmission lines were being um enlarged from Umatillaa to um Valuchia County and so forth. You know

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that was one of the big concerns people had is that okay this is a bigger system it's going to affect me in my house or nearby. So, you would think with all of this concentration of power, however, what you talked about and that is creating that efficiency, maybe that lowers the magnetic field. I don't know.

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I'm not I'm just throwing that out there. I have no idea. But it would seem like that would be a big concern of humans that we'd want to make sure that it wasn't throwing off this like massive magnetic field. >> That has not been something we've we've

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heard a lot of for data centers. >> All right. Sorry. Thanks. Okay. All right. Um, Mr. >> Yeah, I think Clay's online if you had wanted him to respond to the questions about the clos water system and >> yes, this is Klay Corsy with the St.

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John's River Water Management District. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak on this subject. Um, I'm not aware of any of the data centers that are, you know, in the St. John's River Water Management District that are using either a closed loop or

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one that would use some sort of evaporative cooling process where you're losing water to steam. But it's my understanding that both of those technologies are something that are available for those data centers to use. But here at the district, we don't have any in our water management district

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that are large enough to have been um required to come in to get a consumptive use permit. But I think um as we discussed earlier today with the S Senate bill 484 that any permit for one of those large scale data centers would then have to come before our governing

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board for consideration. >> But it doesn't sound like in the St. John's district that we do have any that are hitting that threshold that they need to get the consumptive use permit. Is that >> Yeah, we do not. We do not have any that are currently coming in for a

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consumptive use permit. There are there are some that are served by a public supply utilities in our district. Um like the professor from UCF had mentioned too um some of those smaller um size data centers. >> Okay.

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Any other questions by commissioners? I mean, as you know, we're in this phase of um moving forward with a temporary moratorum till we can figure out exactly what limitations and regulations we would want to have in place in order to

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protect the community. Um, of course, that would be only in the unincorporated area. Um, but I would think that if any cities were considering um this that I mean they would be even closer to urbanized areas. So it would

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be harder for them maybe to have sites that would be appropriate. Um but it it's probably a good idea maybe for the county manager to outreach to the city managers to let them know about our discussion to see if we move forward

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um whether they would want to opt in to our >> the city of Minnola recently passed a data center moratorium I believe last week or the week before that's the only one that I've heard from >> what what number did they >> they just did a very broad had a very

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very broad definition of data center um that they did their moratorum based off of. >> Okay. >> Uh I I'm I'm really this is a great presentation and this is a very important subject. A lot of very valid concerns from residents that we're

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getting. So um I really like it and I I will volunteer and commit to if you can find a data center for me to go see, Kathleen, I'll go see it myself. I mean maybe other commissioners will too. Can't do it together, but we could go do it. I think that would be important research and there's kind of two

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questions is the the moratorum but then making sure that we do it right because um you know we can take the time to to draft the right um regulations on this. So I have questions about what we can do regulatory with water usage in particular. Um, so I guess the

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moratorium might give us a little time to do that, but I would want an end on it to, you know, an end date, if you will, um, to come up with something that's going to be, uh, good and obviously protect Lake County, but but

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also, um, be be balanced in the sense of issues with public safety and not affecting public safety. And I just think we have to be a little careful with that. But but this is great. It's a great place to start. And I I like the discussion. >> My concern is moratorum.

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It's just negative connotation for Lake County that we don't want it. We're going to have the ability to say yes or no anyway. So why do we why do we just say we're not interested in even talking to you now. It it goes against all the economic principles that I would know of

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of business bringing business in. Um I mean lead is talking with people now that will need something like this. Why would we say we're not going to have anything available for at least a year before we

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can talk to you? So, >> that's my take on it. >> Yeah, I believe that was already brought up. That's the reason why we put a pause on it until the um planning department can come up with some pretty good definitions of what we were looking for. Correct. >> It wasn't my understanding we had a

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pause. I thought that what we were trying to do was actually draft something and then it just goes through that process. It goes to the planning department first, you know, to the uh and then the planning and zoning board. >> So So that's correct. At your last meeting on the 23rd, the board um by

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consensus told us to move forward with basically the Citrus County version of the ordinance. Um that ordinance is scheduled to go to the planning and zoning board August 5th and I'll be sending that draft out to you this afternoon. But the Citrus County version

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was also very very broad and their definition of data center data data center captured everything from your emergency operations center to your basic server room. Um so we do um I worked with the staff and we do have

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some exemptions in there. Although this ordinance does not define it as large load um it is broad in that sense that when it comes back to you you can certainly narrow it. um as much as you like or you can choose not to approve it at all. But that's going to be coming back to you, I believe, your second

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meeting in August, which will be your first public hearing. Okay. >> I have a I have a question if you don't mind. Question if you don't mind. How how long would it take, do you think, the process of making this policy, this rule codes, how long would it take for

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you to draft it? Because I'm hearing things like is there any applications, whatever, any interest in the county? I mean can is this something that after our research and a couple of hearing not hearings but workshops and hearing I

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guess that we could just change. >> So if you impose the moratorum you can certainly dissolve it at any point in time. Um I think typically we do a year in the rare occasions where we've done a moratorum just because it's a a long process to impose it. You have to have

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the two public hearings and the planning and zoning board and display ads and all of those types of things. But you can certainly dissolve it at any point earlier and Katherine may or um Kathleen may have an estimate of time. >> Yeah. I And you could do it for a year or until we bring forward an ordinance

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with a code that we need to support a large scale data center coming into Lake County or a large load user. The East Central Florida Regional Planning Council is convening a roundt of county staff from all of their um counties that they serve in September. And one of the

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things that I've asked them to do as a result of that, I think Mark's going to be a part of that as well, is to look at model codes that we could take and adapt or versions of model codes that would help support counties and municipalities in getting into our code the restrictions that we need so that you

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really can own as a board what do you want in Lake County and what do you not want and being proactive with getting that code in place. So that starts in September. Um, I don't know how long they plan on that taking, but it would be good to be able

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to have our staff engage in that process and be able to bring back a model code. >> So, Melanie, let me ask you a quick question. The U if the hospitals use AI. So, if we have a hospital that comes in and wants to build, we have a moratorum.

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They can't have they can't have a system in there. So the exemption language that we currently have drafted in light of the hospitals um is is we have three exemptions. One of which would would be data center server rooms etc for um

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governmental agencies, educational institution, healthc care providers, nonprofit organizations for the primary purpose of supporting the entities's internal operations. Um also facilities used primarily to host enterprise information technology which was one of the categories in the presentation and

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then any incidental or ancillary artificial intelligence applications that support the operations of the owner for their internal operations. So those are the exemptions that we currently have drafted. So they a hospital would certainly be able to do that but then this would still exclude a data center

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for the sole purposes of providing AI to third parties. It's just going to be interesting to see what's drafted. Um I know the the main concern that I've been hearing is the um drain on the power supply and the drain on the water supply. If we can correct

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those two then so thanks. >> Thank you so much for being here today. appreciate the information and hopefully our staff can be in conversations with you as we try to narrow down exactly how

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we would prepare our ordinance. And I'm sure based on our discussion day, everybody understands what our concern is. And just to let the public know, you know that >> I mean our it it for for my standpoint, you know, economic development is a is a big deal. It's important to our local

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economy, to our our students, the opportunities that we want to provide for them, but at the same time, keeping everyone safe, making sure that we're not creating a situation that's actually harmful to our community. Um, that's first and foremost. >> We want both, right? >> So, we want we want both. We want to

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make sure that we're hitting the right, you know, details, that we're not excluding the things that are beneficial to the community um from a job creation standpoint, but that we're taking into consideration what we need to take into consideration to protect our community.

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So, all right. Well, thank you and um we'll take a fivem minute break everybody and then we'll reconvene. >> Sure. Easy. Yeah. Easy. Okay. >> Good. Okay. Um, we're at tab 15 and this is

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um ordinance and I'm going to turn it over to the county attorney. This will be an ordinance of the board of county commissioners of Lake County, Florida, creating section 303, Lake County Code, land development regulations to be entitled certified recovery residences, amending section 30103, Lake County Code, land development regulations to

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include certified recovery residences as a permitted or conditional use and specified zoning districts. Amending chapter 2 Lake County code land development regulations and title definitions providing for severability, providing for inclusion in the code, providing for filing with Department of State, and providing for an effective date. This is your second and final reading on this ordinance and if you

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choose to approve it today, it'll become ordinance 2026-33. >> Okay. This is a public hearing. Um I don't have any cards on this. I'll just ask if we have anyone in the audience that wishes to speak. Anyone online?

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Uh I'll bring it back to the board. >> Move to approve. >> Second. >> All right. We have a motion and a second. All in favor say I. I I that passes 4 to zero. Moving on then to tab 16. This is also an ordinance. County

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attorney. This >> will be an ordinance of the board of county commissioners of Lake County, Florida, amending section 90106 entitled landscape buffer requirements, Lake County code appendex, land development regulations, establishing a a minimum buffer width from public roads, providing for severability, providing for inclusion of the code, providing for

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filing with department of state, providing for an effective date. You choose to approve this today become ordinance 2026-34. And this ordinance includes, per your last discussion, a type-C 25- f foot buffer if you are um developing along roadways excluding single lots of

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record. Um so it's basically going to be non-residential and commercial or subdivisions. Um and then we'll bring back more changes to the landscape code as requested by the board in the future. Okay. Um I don't have any cards, anyone

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online? Um, bringing it back to the board though, I just wanted to point out, as I recall, our discussion was that we were going to continue working as you indicated, the sooner the better. I don't really want to wait until the regular LDR changes. I would really like

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to see this come back in as much the near future as possible so that we can refine some of the discussions that we had about the different types of landscape material. I personally would like to see some way where we incentivize leaving natural existing

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vegetated areas in return for however we could word it so that you're mo motivated to keep those and you get additional credit for keeping them. Um but to be clear, I'm not talking about additional credit like bonuses, denity

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bonuses. I'm just talking about the type of buffer and the amount of landscape material that there could be a way to actually incentivize having vegetated existing area stay intact. >> Yeah. Uh so this is uh from rehashing

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what you said this essentially and same understanding is let's get this in place and continue to work on improving the LDRs as we move forward. Right. >> Right. So we don't end up with a the small the smaller buffer that was there before. We at least have a minimum of 25. And I have the same understanding

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and that's why to be supportive of moving forward and we'll keep working on our codes formbbased codes hybrid whatever we're going to be doing uh something like that in the future the near future. >> Do we have a motion to proceed? >> I mean I'll make that motion.

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>> Do we have a second? I thought you guys I thought you were >> everybody participated in the discussion and like >> I was just waiting for someone else to second. >> You seconded it. Okay. You were giving somebody else the opportunity to second. I follow you. Okay.

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>> All right. But I'll interpret that as you made the second. No, >> I made a second. >> Okay. All right. We have a motion and a second. All in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Okay. Um, tab 17. Um, this is, uh,

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Commissioner Smith's, uh, group that he's the board that he's a liazison with, the parks and trails advisory board. Commissioner Smith. Um, I see we've got a district we've got district two applicants.

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>> We have a district two and a district four. >> Yes. And I want to wait. I think the district 4 was pulled off. We're going to bring that back at a later date

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>> and I'm and I'm supportive of the district two uh continuing. >> Yeah. I requested >> Jim Peacock, right? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think he's doing a good job. >> And we're not doing district four today. >> Correct.

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So, I I'll make a motion um to appoint Jim Peacock for the next term. >> I'll second that. >> Okay. All right. We have a motion and a second. All in favor say I. >> I. >> I. That passes four to zero.

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Okay. So, that takes care of two. Um then um on tab 18 um this is with the public lands and trails acquisition advisory committee commissioner parks.

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>> Yeah. So uh basically these are all um current members and you know I'm supportive of continuing their service. They all want to do it. They're doing a great job. Feels like they just got started and they've had some long meetings. We got another one coming up. U I'm certainly supportive of my

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district appointee Tim Salin who's the chair now doing a good job. So I would make a motion uh unless there's any other discussion I'll make a motion for approval of reappointment of all those members of district 2 district 4 at large and two atlarges uh AJ Row Donna

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Basel uh Kate Carter and Tim Sin >> second. >> All right in favor say I. I. That passes four to zero. Um, moving then to reports. County Attorney, County Manager. >> No report.

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>> Um, Commissioner Parks. >> Yes, ma'am. I would uh just like to thank everybody again uh for the presentation this morning. Uh, thanks for putting that on the agenda. I thought she did a amazing job. I'll point out again that we've got these little QR codes that she mentioned that

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if you're interested, uh, commissioners, you can go uh, sign that petition or support her in some way if you want. either way or both. And then also just a reminder the legislative aids that I think listen to our meetings often from our local delegation. Um please uh

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consider uh what she is talking about uh when it comes to legislation especially when it comes to improved education and tougher feet tougher um consequences for uh hitand-run uh drivers as well. uh she's some got

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some really good ideas there and I think um obviously her personal experience is going to be weigh a lot heavier uh with our legislative delegation maybe perhaps than just me going in there or one of us going in there but um so please if you're listening to uh the legislative

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aids are listening please invite Gabby to come uh come speak with you about um some of the things that she talked about legislatively today that's my one request uh or one comment and then Second comment is I would like to get some information on

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I'm going to open up a big subject here. Uh but water quality enhancement areas. Uh I think it's a could be something that's um could be very good for Lake County. So obviously what is it? Some say it's akin to wetland mitigation but

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for for uh nutrient the nutrient side of water of uh water resources. Um, it's actually different than that. Uh, but I, uh, have seen some very good presentations lately, sort of getting into this now. It's been, it's

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been, uh, law for a couple of years, but, finally getting going and they're going to be doing some rule making this year. I think it might be important for us to have an update for everybody on what our water quality enhancement area is. >> Is that got an acronym? >> Yeah, WQEA.

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And um >> radio station. >> Yeah, it does. does kind of so what it is and how it could help Lake County. I think there's a tie uh to WQEA's uh and how we could potentially fund these properties that are purchased with land

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management because there's a there's a qual there's a credit system that's in place now statutoily has been for two years and I think there's some opportunity uh for us to maybe help especially with who knows what's going to happen with amendment three on how we

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can fund the long the ongoing maintenance without us having to put our in our own uh tax dollars. to that. So, uh, one way or the other, I it's it's just I think it's good for us to look at at least whether it's done or not is a different story, but I'd like to get the

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discussion going on that uh in conjunction with the water authority because some of the members there I know are kind of getting into this too a little bit. Um, it doesn't have to be like right now, but maybe by the end of the year at some point we could really have a good discussion kind of like what

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we had today on um data centers, which I appreciate. Um we could have a discussion like that and get maybe get a panel or some people to come present uh to us on that. >> Okay. >> Okay. And that's it. >> I mean that's completely separate from like the BMAP thing. This is this is

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like actually some type credits that you can get. >> And it's a tool that can be used to help you meet your BMAP as well which is Thank you for mentioning that because that's that was like one of the big points that they were in a recent presentation I saw that they were emphasizing. >> Okay. Okay, >> it can actually help us achieve our

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BMAP. >> Sounds good. All right. Um, Commissioner Smith, >> no report. >> Commissioner Morris, >> report. >> Um, and then the one thing I wanted to mention is, um, I it feels like it was a lifetime ago, but I think it was at our last meeting when we had the discussion

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about the Wakiva protection area and I talked about the, um, the transferable development rights. And um I just wanted to just provide just a little bit more information to to the board because after the meeting I went back and looked

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a little closer again at some of the lands that would be subject to receiving TDRs that are in this receiving area. And when you look at one of the maps, it looks like it's a lot of areas that are already developed into like one is an

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old subdivision. I think it's like around the Shetland Trails area off of 437 and it's just a lot of little lots and then you've got some where you see like anywhere from one acre lots to five acre lots and various sizes. Then there are some parcels that are like

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completely pristine large tracks. One in particular that I noticed that really caused me concern is one that is adjacent to 46A. Um, so it's it's east of the um Red Tale neighborhood. Um,

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completely beautiful, pristine. Always thought as I drove through there that that was part of the sending area, not a receiving area, but it's a it's a receiving area. So there and and that's

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just one. There are some others that are larger partial. So, I just wanted to get that on everyone's radar that it it's not so much the concern over the areas that are already developed. It's the ones that would fit into the category of

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looking very much like pristine Wakiva protection areas where you would not want to see development. Um, and back to the TDRs, the thing that's different about the ones that were discussed at the last meeting from

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the ones that are basically attached to existing property is that the ones that are attached to existing property that are in the sending areas, someone would have to actually basically they would be taking one unit to five acres off of

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tracks that exist, transferring them to a specific property. like there would be a specific property that was looking for TDRs, but you would only get one unit to five acres. So, if you, you know, you can look at different partials that are out there and kind of do the math and

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figure out, you know, what's really available and what could potentially happen in the future. The difference with these is they're not speculative. These are existing. They exist and they're not attached to any receipt. They're not attached to a property.

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They're they already exist. They're they're basically like in a bank and can be used and that's what makes them very different and makes them very accessible to um developers that might want to purchase them to put them on these receiving properties. So, I think it's a

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real um threat and I would just ask that you would keep an open mind and think about the possibility of how we could take those off of the market so that they're not or at least maybe even I

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know the land acquisition committee has a lot of parcels that have been submitted, but maybe these parcels some of these partials I'm thinking of are ones that should be under consideration. So, >> the only thing I will say is um you know there's a great meeting coming up on the

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30th and then a couple another one with the land acquisition committee meeting. We're we're figuring out very quickly that 50 million isn't Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's going to be tough. But yeah, I mean I it's a it's a

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>> What about the potential of going back to D? Um, I mean, I know there's only so much money at the state level for land acquisition and like the old Florida Forever program and that type of thing

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that exploring whether any of these parcels that I'm referring to that are in our receiving area of the Wakiva Protection area could potentially that the state would help us acquire the those TDRs so that they don't get used

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to increase the density of those properties. >> Yeah, I mean I think there's a you would it would take some a little bit of hands-on with D and you know getting the right people. >> We could get the Wakiva protection or the Wakiva Friends of the Wakiva maybe

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the Ottabon Society would help us and make our case >> um to D to see whether we could get on a list or in you know whether there's a way that they would consider helping

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take those TDRs and purchase them and get them off the books. >> Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure it's something our lobbyists could help with as well. >> Yeah. >> Anybody? >> I'm not interested in buying them. >> Well, my idea was to see whether the

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state would be interested in trying to preserve the Waka Protection Area. if the state wants to buy them. >> Yeah. >> I'm not interested in spending that money on somebody's TDRs. >> Yeah. >> Well, yeah. I mean, I think >> if they're valuable, he they could be

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sold now. >> Well, they can be sold now. And that's what my concern is that they they can be sold now and that there are properties that if they attach them to are properties that you probably will regret when it happens when they start to be developed you'll say, "Man, I wish that

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we had done something about that because those are not properties you would like to see developed um in that area." >> And how long have these TDRs been on the open market? >> Well, it took him 15 years, I think. Wait a minute. No, no, no. But I know

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you guys get all, you know, you get positioned and postured where you quit listening. And >> it's not positioning and posturing. It is understanding that he's got something that they have to follow the rules that we already have in place. If he sells

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one TDR, it's got to follow a one to five rule or a one to one rule. It's not like they can jam a bunch of them together into uh they can't put 500 homes into 20 acres. >> It's got 325. That's 325 units that be

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one to one and you could cluster them. So you can highdensity looking subdivision in an area that >> and he can do one one just like anybody else can do one out there 50% open space. I don't see the reason why we are agreeing to pay for them. I do know that

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we did agree that we would let him go to an urban area and sell him in an urban area. >> You you can't you can't do that because now what you're doing is if you do that, the more I thought about that, you're devaluing those receiving areas because they're losing the opportunity to be the

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properties. It was all set up for the receiving area. You don't re you don't want to receive anything in the receiving area. the people that so when the Wakiva Act went into place, there were people that were given the right to have these transferred in, right? >> And people that had them opportunity to

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have them um sold from their lands. So if you open up the locations where they could go, then that's that that's could be problematic to the people that had the right to receive. So I guess the >> So now I'm really confused. >> All right. I have an idea.

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>> I'm really confused. So, you don't want to restrict the receiving area. However, you want to buy these TDRs because somebody in the receiving area may receive them. >> What I want to stop from happening is locations that are completely pristine

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that are part of the Wakiva Protection Area that probably at the time when the whole thing was set up probably should have been purchased by the state because of the >> Absolutely. I can give you a map. I can show you where to go. You guys act like I'm just like shooting off the hip here.

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It It's a serious problem for somebody who actually cares about what happens to that area. And the fact that the guy didn't have him available to sell until 10 years ago, that's because he had to literally sue the state in order to get what had been promised to him to begin

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with. So it it there's a lot of history to it. But then think about the population explosion that happened in 2020 2021 that we're dealing with right now in Lake County with all of the rapid growth, the exponential rate of growth in Lake County. So wouldn't it make

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sense that right now as things are growing fast that these are the times when something like this becomes something that would be attractive to a developer. And that's my only point is instead of being skeptical about the

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motivation here or skeptical that this guy didn't sell them until now, >> we don't even know if he owns all of them. There were three people that owned those >> and he is the trustee of a trust where all of those owners put those TDRs. >> I haven't seen that. >> All right. So, so,

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>> you know, but why the skepticism? Why treating him like the criminal? Because I don't think that our our residents voted on a 15 $50 million bond issue to buy TDRs. They wanted to buy land. They wanted to be able to use it. That's why

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they they don't want to have they don't want to bank something. They want something that they can walk on and they can use. And I don't think that the um the price is is appropriate either. I mean, he's want he was wanting we don't know what he wants. He started out at

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19,000 a TDR because of some thing over in in Red Tale, but he don't he didn't even tell us a price yet. I don't think that was just a guess. So, I'm I'm still trying to understand the the whole TDR

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process thing. So you have a guy that you have a person that has a plot of land. Let's say he has make it easy for my math 10 TDRs. He sells his land. He's in agriculture.

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So he gets one to 20, right? Or or one to five. Are we talking about someone that still owns their land and they have the right they have TDRs on them versus somebody who got paid TDRs by the state of Florida when their land became

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conservation land out near Walker Cemetery in Pine Lakes? Because they're two different situations. What happened to him versus the way that lands are in the Wakiva Protection Area right now that have TDRs on them that haven't been transferred. No one's tried to use them.

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They're just they're on the land. So, so again, I'm trying to understand the TDR process. I'm not taking this personal. Um, you shouldn't take it personal. I'm trying to get the TDR process. So,

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>> yeah. >> Go. >> No, I I I and I'm I'm obviously very familiar with the TDR process and very supportive. >> Let me ask you this question. >> This is a difference. Okay. Go ahead. >> Let me ask you this question. All right. >> Maybe it'll help. A guy has 10 TDRs

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in agriculture land. >> Okay. So the zoning is 1 to 20 in agricultures land, right? >> In the Wakiva you're talking about in the >> He's saying just in general >> just in general. >> Yeah. You're trying to understand >> 1 to 20. It's 1 to five. >> You're all right. Go ahead.

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>> It's 1 to 20 >> or it's 1 to five if you have open land. Right. >> Just like a transitional zones 1 to 10. one to three or one to one. Same scenario. So he has one to 20 with no

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open space, one to five with 50% open space, right? So he has these 10 TDRs. He sells his TDRs but keeps his land is what I'm

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understanding. So now he can't build on the land, but he sold his TDRs to somebody that wants them, >> right? >> That person that took that TDR may be apparently there's a rece there's a

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receiving area down the road. They've got to follow the same rules that those TDRs came from or do they follow the new rules of where they're going to? >> They have their own rules. The receiving area has its own densities. It has its

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own bonus points. It's a very >> yes >> complicated system. >> So it's like so every every property has like this bundle of rights, right? The old analogy a bundle of sticks, right? You pull one out, you've sold your ability to develop the property, but you still have all the other rights that are go along with that.

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>> And you can put cows on it, >> cows, whatever. >> Or you might save one. Maybe you save one right to have the a house, but you've sold the rest of them. And it's a it's a free market principle. So there'd be like a you sell it for u on on a

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market essentially for a developer in an in an area that needs something. Um now I' I've always I've always thought that it's important you tie it to uh our overallocation number. So you would never you know it it it it's like an

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accounting ledger. comes off of the overallocation and we're not adding units but it comes out of that and it's transferred to a certain area like you said in this in our case it should be the cities. >> Now to commissioner Campion's point the problem is is this was set up way before we were here and the receiving area I

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think is just why it's been a complete failure but I think the receiving area this receiving area should have been a lot bigger >> and somewhere else I mean >> and maybe somewhere else even yeah and maybe somewhere else. So I what I would suggest is I think there could be a case be made to D. It would require some a

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lot of working going up there, but I agree. I don't want to use our 50 million because I can tell you we've got about 80 million of of requests on the list >> already. It goes quick, doesn't it? >> It goes really quick. So >> So the the whole point is is I don't mind going to the D

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to see if they want to purchase this. I just don't I I don't want to spend the cit the citizens money on this when one they're never mind. I just don't want to send

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this I don't want to spend the citizens tax dollars on this at this time. And I'm first to say that I mean I think we all recognize that the plaque money or the public lands money that that doesn't

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go that far, you know, when all of these different things are under consideration. And I brought this up because I hope that there might be other ways. And and if you go back and read what I said at the last meeting, I talked about D. I talked about under

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other funding sources. So, this is not an issue of me trying to get money from the public land acquisition group. It's bringing to everybody's awareness that we probably would like to see that land in some of those receiving areas

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preserved. I mean, if the whole goal of the public land acquisition group is to preserve land, why wouldn't we still want to see lands that already exist that are pristine properties in that area? We want those preserved too.

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>> So, so now that and I'm just trying to understand this as so we have a ascending area where these TDRs came from and we have a receiving area. So, let's just say that the guy that owns the land that's in this receiving

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area, does he have to get something from a sending area to be able to build or can he just build on his property the way it is now, the way it's zoned? He's gonna he's going to make a correct me if I'm wrong, but he's whoever that is is going to make a case under the current

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rules that we have to build a certain way so they'll be limited to that density. And if they come in and they say, "Oh, I want to add a couple extra units. I'm going to buy u you know this person's TDRs, then we have to entertain it and approve it or not." >> Well, we don't have to approve it. We

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have we can enter we entertain all kinds of things. So the question the question I have is >> just just because the guy a person is in a receiving area he can still build to what zoning regulations

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>> it's 1 to 20 >> or 1 to five >> but it's 1 to 20 I'm telling you the receiving area is 1 to 20 it's not 1 to5 it's not one to one it the receiving area the waka protection area is one to 20 that's what he's got 1 to 20 and so

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>> all right so so he He can build one to 20. So if he gets these TDRs from this other place that allows him to build one to five, does he now get one to five or does he have to still build

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one to 20? >> So I don't have the comp plan policy memorized sadly. You know, surprisingly as that sounds, um, my recollection is that the receiving area, receiving area one is 1 to 20. If they buy TDRs, they

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can get as much density as one to one. So, if they buy enough TDRs, they could come down to one unit to one acre. There is a second receiving area which is the Mount Plymouth Sarrento receiving area and I believe that one has a density of 5 and a half units to the acre if I

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remember correctly. So it's really receiving area one which is the I think the properties where Commissioner Campion's talking about. So you're going from 1 to 20 to 1:1 if you buy enough TDRs. >> Yeah. So the question but the question is is

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and maybe we should save that for a later day is what the process is if they are if we're >> if we would have to say yes >> we're forced to accept that or not. >> Yeah. And I think that's where you you get into a major. >> So can we have a workshop on this

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>> just this alone TDR only >> for the Wakiva area because if you open it up to the >> Yeah. Yeah. for the Wakiva area because I think this is an important enough issue that I need to be more educated on this. >> I still don't like spending that amount

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of money on things that are to me right now are unsellable. But I want to I'm I want to do a workshop to have a better understanding, get all the facts, >> and then we can go from there. We can dive back 25, 30 years. I don't care. >> And we would have to because that's when

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the act went into place. But you don't I think it's a great idea to understand it and then to the extent that we make an argument to the state and we try to advocate to try to save some of these pristine locations that are in the receiving area that we have a better

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understanding of you know what what's at risk and I do think that we would get support from some of the environmental groups that would want to see these lands um at least protected at the 1 to 20 versus going to one to one. >> I think it'll be a good discussion. I

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don't have the comp plan that part memorized, but I will warn you that I you may not get the answer. It's going to be a it's going to be a little vague still. That's why this has been a problem. And I D really needs to help us. Uh I think too as part of it to the receiving areas.

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>> Okay. >> Yeah. But you're right. I mean, having a good discussion is great. It's a good idea. >> Yeah. >> Okay. All right. to follow that up. Why did he not get the TDRs in the original when they when he

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>> Because the state was playing games with him. See, there was a lot of land that was being purchased at the time. >> Yeah. Okay. >> And there was a lot of, you know, um there there was >> I there there were a lot of contracts out there. The state was buying conservation lands. This whole thing

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with the Wakiva Parkway was, you know, extremely political. Um the the metro Orlando area wanted to see the Wakiva Parkway, the beltway completed. You had the environmental groups that were concerned about what was going to happen

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to the Wakiva basin. And so there was a lot of trading of, you know, where it's going to go here versus here, what are you going to get in return? And so there was money that was set aside by the state to go out and buy lands and create conservation areas. And that money only

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went so far. And so when they couldn't necessarily pay what they should be paying full value, this was part of a part of the deal. That would be his their argument is that they got TDRs to make up the difference. Then when they went to try to use the TDRs, they were told, "Oh, no, no, you

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got paid." And so he had to go to court to prove that no, the TDRs were part of the value of what they were paid for the land. And if you look at the map at the land that they that was purchased that's now state conservation land, it's in a beautiful area of the very

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environmentally sensitive location. So it was good that the land was purchased. >> So he did the the other people that sold their land, did it did it spell out they got TDRs when they sold their land? >> It's in the contract. >> Okay. And it's in his contract, too. >> All of this is there and that's what he

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litigated. Yeah, >> he does have it in his contract that he the TDRs >> short of that he sold the property and it's in uh was it in the sales contract itself or was it a memorandum? I mean like a letter of agreement.

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>> So my understanding is that when Mr. Ham and his two partners contracted with D to sell the land that Mr. Hamri negotiated to keep the TDRs and that language because typically in your purchase agreement it says you're buying

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all rights and blah blah blah blah blah. So he had the TDRs removed out of that standard language because he intended to keep them transaction happened. He sold the land and then he ended up in a contract

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dispute with D because D then said no we bought all the rights. We did not buy, we did not leave you the TDRs. We bought everything. Um, so in Mr. Hamck's favor, he litigated with D for 20 years. They fought him for 20 years on whether or

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not the TDRs were his. They finally settled with him and gave him the TDRs after the very long protracted litigation. So he has always maintained that he negotiated to keep those rights and DP

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then said no. Um there was also an issue of D could not locate the actual original purchase agreement. So there were some issues there with evidentiary matters as well. >> And one other thing to remember from what happened back 30 some years ago

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there were a lot of people that were really upset that they were going from having land that was one unit to 5 acres. They had a zone land that one unit 5 acres and they were it was imposed upon them. this Wakiva

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Protection, you know, act that then led to the county commission of Lake County imposing these higher densities. They got moved from one unit to 5 acres to one unit to 40 acres. So, you have you have sending areas that are one unit to

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40 acres and sending areas that are one unit to 20 acres. Nobody ever got paid for the rights that they lost um when those lower densities happened. And under the Bert Harris Act, you couldn't do that.

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You couldn't do that today. So, it's just it it's it's I think it's historically significant that you now have the situation that we have, which I'm glad the conservation rules are in place. I'm glad the protections are in place. Um but in you

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know in in their defense there were people that were sold their land didn't necessarily want to sell their land but they were glad to get something in return. So you had a situation if you were a land owner you felt like number one your land was being devalued and then the state was turning around and

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paying you for it for that devalued amount. So there there's a lot of >> bad feelings back then over it. Right. I think D has has a role in in helping us with this and and we could try to work through that route because you know a prime if you look at the growth

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management act 163 a prime tool that they list in there for growth management is TDRs and then so now you're making a case to them well this is like part of growth management act but now you're you made it you you know you're making it very difficult for us with this so you have to help us I think would might be a

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good argument but >> yeah especially if you want to use them going forward you want to So at least you got something like this resolved and >> Right. >> Anyway, okay. Well, thank you for the discussion and we'll look at the opportunity for like actually workshopping it and going into a little

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bit more detail. So, all right. Well, that was the last item on the agenda. So, um, Commissioner S, do you have something about today that makes today even more special than it is? I do. And it is probably another perfect day for it because today is National Chocolate

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Milk Day. So, everybody needs to go out and drink some chocolate milk. >> Can we add like funny? >> Can we put some ice cream in it and make it a chocolate milkshake? >> Whatever you want to do. >> All right. Okay. All right. We stand

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adjourned.